After weather delays I am finally in Frankfurt Germany for the BASTA! Konferenz. While I was in London and also waiting at London Heathrow I had time to think about some comments asking why we named one of our new products Delphi for PHP.
One way to think of Delphi is that it is a word for a product the delivers RAD, Visual development, Visual and Non-Visual Component libraries. Delphi is a way of programming regardless of the programming language you are using in the environment. When someone mentions Java, do you think of the language, the VM, the API, the community process, or the editions of the developer kit?
Given that we now have new products with Delphi 2007 for Win32 and Delphi for PHP, what should we call the language inside Delphi 2007? In versions 1-6 (at least) of Delphi (and dating back to Turbo Pascal 5.5) we included the Object Pascal language manual with the product. Should we stick with Object Pascal for the language name?
Officially, Object Pascal was a language specification published by Apple Computer (Larry Tesler’s group) in conjunction with Niklaus Wirth back in the early 80’s for the Macintosh computer.
Turbo Pascal 5.5 implemented Object Pascal with some extensions - you could define static methods and you could call methods deep in ancestor objects without having to use the "inherited" keyword.
In Delphi 1 we extended Object Pascal with Components. Then we added Interfaces for Com programming in Delphi 3. Along the way added operator overloading, structured exception handling (Try/Except and Try/Finally), and things I’m sure I am forgetting at the moment due to sleep deprivation/jet lag.
There are other languages with the Pascal name in them, Component Pascal and Concurrent Pascal, to name just two.
Component Pascal is a language created created by Oberon Microsystems Inc in Switzerland. It was originally named Oberon/L and is a superset of the Oberon-2 language. John Gough at Queensland University of Technology in Australia developed the .NET and JVM compilers for the Component Pascal language. (thank you Chris Burrows of CFB Software, for the correct Component Pascal information).
Concurrent Pascal was a language created by Per Brinch Hansen in the mid 1970s (the language added class, monitor, queue, and process data types to Pascal. It also added Delay and Continue statements used for scheduling within monitors). There are also national and international standards for the Pascal language (from years ago) called ANSI Pascal, ANSI-ISO Pascal, and ANSI Extended Pascal.
So what do we call CodeGear’s modernized version of Object Pascal? How about "Object Pascal + components +++" (perhaps too much of a mouthful). How about "Object Pascal++", "Pascal++", "P++", "P#", "Pascal", "Pascal 2007"?
What would you call the language in Delphi (besides the "Delphi" language)?
{ 161 } Comments
RAD Pascal?
"Pascal++" and variants remind one of C++, and we don’t want to imitate C, do we?
CodeGear’s version of Pascal is unique to CodeGear (possible clones excepted), so why not just "CodeGear Pascal"?
"Object Pascal" is very good and recognizable name, is it really necessary to rename it? As for "Delphi" - it is very bad choice for language name because of now we have "Delphi for PHP" != "Object Pascal for PHP". "Delphi" is no more language name. Look at Microsoft for instance - they have no language "Visual Studio"!
I’m sure that all those people that never tried Pascal/Delphi and think it’s some kind of Visual Basic language.. a name like "OP+" could hype the language again.
I know it’s stupid, but we are dealing with people here..
"Delphi for OP+" sounds nice in my ears
i think the point has been missed. it is "Delphi for PHP" which needs renaming. i wonder if it only got such a bizarre name as a twisted way to make this product a topic of conversation amongst developers. i think providing a trial version would be a better way to do that - if it’s any good, that is.
How about Waffle? or Confusion?
As remember being beat up of calling the Langauge Object Pascal and that it was Delphi.
I realized your trying to capitalize on name and make "Delphi" a Brand. But you have 10 releases of that product were it was a "product" not a "Brand" (at least from my point of view) Now changing it to a Brand is confusing… I had co-workers thinking they could write in "Delphi or should I saw Language X" and it would generate PHP runtime compliant libraries.
Regardless of the naming, I am a bit confused and I don’t think that is the intention.
My Vote go back what many of us still call the language, even though we were told it was not the name of the language: Object Pascal.
Well, why not call it… Object Pascal.
Any language that doesn’t grow, dies. All the "stuff" that has been added is just Object Pascal maturing and growing that way any language should.
The name "Object Pascal" still adequately describes the language. It is still primarily extended through OOP, regardless if other constructs in the language have been added.
If the intent of the ‘Delphi for <language>’ monkier is to describe the Delphi RAD way of things for a particular language, then I tend to lean towards Object Pascal. Its a name that the language has been known by previously, and does quite a good job of describing what the language is all about, IMHO.
The only concern is do I then call myself a Delphi developer (as I do currently) or an Object Pascal developer? And if the former, would I still call myself a Delphi developer if I used Delphi for PHP exclusively (or Delphi for C#, for that matter).
Also, would that mean that the .NET version of Delphi would be called ‘Delphi for Object Pascal for the Microsoft .NET Framework’?
Delphi, to my way of thinking, is pretty much synonymous [at this point] with Object Pascal … nothing you do will make everyone happy. Check out non-technical for proof if you doubt me.
]
Me, I’d like to see you start boosting the CodeGear name.
CodeGear Delphi [OP if you want]
CodeGear Delphi.Net
CodeGear Developer Studio Professional/Enterprise
CodeGear Turbo Delphi Explorer
CodeGear Turbo Delphi Pro [Not Professional ... Pro
CodeGear Turbo …
CodeGear PHP
[ ... ]
Sheesh, you guys have a lot of products.
If you really, really have to … in ittty, bitty type that no one can really see you can put "for" between CodeGear and whatever.
CodeGear is the branding you want to go for and there’s no reason why you can’t do it on the back of the Delphi name you already have.
CodeGear - From Explorer to Enterprise, you pick the personality.
Enjoy Germany.
"RASCAL" !
I never stopped calling it Object Pascal, even when Borland decided that it was now "Delphi". It might be extended, but fundamentally it’s Pascal, and fundamentally it’s object oriented. Stick with Object Pascal.
Why not the obvious choice:
"Delphi Pascal"!
Would Delphi be what is it today without Pascal? And would the current version of Pascal have like it did without Delphi?
Please read my last sentence above as:
And would the current version of Pascal have GROWN like it did without Delphi?
Well, even in goverment documents, "Delphi" is recognized as a programming language.
For example the canadian goverment on their labour official papers included it, next to Java and others.
If you do a job search, you dont search for Object Pascal, you search for Delphi.
I know you are trying to justify it, so it sounds reasonable, but I even remember you saying, "I am a Delphi developer eventhough I still do some C++."
That was If I recall a Delphi 2006 video presentation.
You must pick either "Delphi", "CodeGear Developers Studio (CDS)" or "Turbo" as the new IDE name. This will represent the RAD style IDE we know as BDS/Turbo/Delphi today. If you make too many IDE product names, or you mix your terms up, you will confuse everyone and shoot yourself in the foot. In fact you may have already done so. Decide on ONE IDE name and then sell API/framework and language combinations to run inside it. You can use the word "for" or the term "personality" as M$ does. (I would not copy M$ myself) Allow for third party framework and language extensions for FreePascal and Chrome and Ruby.
${IDENAME} for Win32 Object Pascal
${IDENAME} for Win32 C++
${IDENAME} for Cross-platform PHP
${IDENAME} for Microsoft .Net C#
${IDENAME} for Mono .Net C#
${IDENAME} for Microsoft .Net Object Pascal
${IDENAME} for Cross-platform Ruby
Stay with Delphi as the Object Pascal IDE and choose a better name for "Delphi for PHP".
May be you could stay in the greek mythology and in the neighbourhood of Delphi:
- Phoebos
- Apollo
- Gaia
…
How about "Elegance"?
Cog, as in cog on the CodeGear? Maybe D++ for Win32 and D# for .NET. Something associated with speed and elegance would be good. Jaguar is taken.
If no other ideas, then Object Pascal works fine if there is no rights conflict with Apple. People are familiar with it.
"P++", "P#" sounds very good to me! Everyone will know what is meant.
Thanks to the Borland marketing and CodeGear split it is very hard to explain anything Delphi now. Delphi 2006, BDS 4.0, Delphi 2007, Turbo Delphi, C++ Builder 2006 - too many synonims and misleading similarities like Delphi 2006 being very much different from Delphi 2007!
IMHO the worst mistake was to mix Delphi and BDS.
CodeGear should make product and brand names strait first, think about the name of the Pascal second.
I hope when branding is done it will be possible to call the language Object Pascal or Delphi Pascal.
How about keeping your focus on producing quality and needed software instead of introducing mumbo jumbo confusion?
How about giving us Delphi with real Unicode support at the VCL level?
How about less confusing talk from you DavidI?
OP+
"Object Pascal" or (slightly worse) "Delphi Pascal" get my vote.
That has some history and significance behind it. Whatever you do, please don’t invent some new trendy moniker that nobody has ever heard of. The OP language is pushing 20 years old, and adding a few relatively small new features doesn’t suddenly justify a trendy name that nobody recognises.
- Roddy
How about "Borland Object Pascal"?
I don’t know who’s responsible for marketing but I think it’s a real mess. Keep it simple:
CodeGear C++ for Linux
CodeGear C# for dotNot
CodeGear Delphi for OSX
CodeGear PHP for Windows
CodeGear Studio
etc.
First the company name, second the language, and third the operating system for the IDE. The studio contains one or more of the separate products.
I’m with the crowd who think we should go back to Object Pascal and get away from the name "Delphi" referring to the language.
For a newcomer to CodeGear’s products, the last couple of months have just made things too confusing.
"Delphi for PHP"? Now they don’t know if Delphi is the tool or the language.
Borland decided to rename Object Pascal as "The Delphi Language" in Delphi 5 or 6, why now confuse it even more? And from what I’ve read and heard, no one ever took up the name Delphi for the language, most of us still call it Object Pascal.
K.I.S.S.
>How about keeping your focus on producing quality and needed software instead of introducing mumbo jumbo confusion?
Yes
> How about giving us Delphi with real Unicode support at the VCL level?
Absolutely
> How about less confusing talk from you DavidI?
I was just asking for everyone’s opinion.
One word sums up the comments so far: confusion.
Come on CG, less focus on names and jargon please. And rename Delphi for PHP. You didn’t call ‘C# Builder’ as ‘Delphi for C#’ or JBuilder as ‘Delphi for Java’.
Why not just call it ‘PHP Builder’ in keeping with the rest of your product names. it has nothing to do with Delphi at all other than it shares an IDE.
Sorry, I know this dicussion was about the Delphi language name but it is all part of the confusion you’ve created with this obsession with changing names. Again.
A fan since Delphi 1.
I really think to reinvent themselves and generate some attention it should be named something new. Pascal is an old language and Object Pascal does not make it sound any better. My hope is that they decide to evolve the language and incorporate cool features like we see in Ruby and C# into the native Win32 language. I like the RemObjects Chrome name alot. So it would be something like Chrome for Win32 and Chrome for .NET
Then I have a feeling that it will draw attention as all new programming language names do and that would be good for CodeGear. But I think first before they rename it, the language should evolve significantly. Again, there are Pros and Cons to this, but these are my thoughts.
The language is Object Pascal.
The "Delphi for PHP" name is more confusing than helpful and should be changed. Otherwise you have to change all of your other product names too…
The language is Object Pascal.
The "Delphi for PHP" name is more confusing than helpful and should be changed. Otherwise you have to change all of your other product names too…
Delphi to everyone in the industry is associated to object pascal. they go hand in hand. Is Codegear trying to say now that the ide is delphi but the language can be anything else ie delphi for c#,Delphi for php, or even delphi for power shell ……
No need to change the name. maybe go back to calling it Delphi 6,7,8,9,10…… instead of adding a year.
as for Delphi for PHP well that is just not right. How about Diane and call the lanugage Object PHP. After all we need more women in the industry.
Object Pascal (OP)
CodeGear Object Pascal (COP)
Delphi Object Pascal (DOP)
or even Borland Object Pascal (BOP)
I don’t think that "Delphi for PHP" was a clever move…
Danny
—
I like the "Open Object Pascal", "OOP".
I don’t like how Delphi suddenly evolved to be something else than Borland’s Pascal RAD tool.
Delphi for PHP. What does that mean?
CodeGear is a mutch better explaining name. I would focus on marketing that name, and have a close connection.
As suggested earlier:
CodeGear Studio
CodeGear for OOP
CodeGear for C++
CodeGear for PHP
CodeGear for C#
Call ”Delphi for PHP” something like PHP Builder instead. When I introduced this new product to my friends they were confused by the name.
Delphi should be both the IDE and the language. Does any other IDE support this unique language?
I think VCL should be renamed rather than Object Pascal IMHO, but only after new big improvements will appear like unicode. More precisely VCL name should be advanced, for example VCL.NG (NG - New or Next Generation).
Maybe Object Pascal could be renamed also
"Delphi for PHP" simply has to go. There’s no way around it. Stop thinking about names for single products. Take a look at the whole picture. My suggestions:
CodeGear (Developer) Studio, which would be little more than a bundled offer of the following products:
CodeGear Delphi for Win32
CodeGear Delphi for .NET
CodeGear C++ Builder (for Win32)
CodeGear C# Builder (for .NET)
CodeGear PHP Builder
CodeGear Python Builder
CodeGear Ruby Builder
…each of which should be available as separate packages as well.
CodeGear Turbo Studio, a bundled offer containing:
CodeGear Turbo Delphi for Win32
CodeGear Turbo Delphi for .NET
CodeGear Turbo C++ Builder (for Win32)
CodeGear Turbo C# Builder (for .NET)
CodeGear Turbo PHP Builder
CodeGear Turbo Python Builder
CodeGear Turbo Ruby Builder
…again, all of which would be available as separate products as well.
To identify an individual release, the version identifier would directly follow the name of the language and the edition identifier would be tacked on at the very end, e.g. :
CodeGear Developer Studio 2007 Architect, containing:
CodeGear Delphi 2007 for Win32 Enterprise
CodeGear Delphi 2007 for .NET Architect
CodeGear C++ Builder 2007 Enterprise
CodeGear C# Builder 2007 Architect
CodeGear PHP Builder 2007 Enterprise
CodeGear Python Builder 2007 Enterprise
CodeGear Turbo Delphi 2007 for Win32 Pro
(I happen to agree with a previous poster that using "Pro" instead of "Professional" will probably be more in line with your intended Turbo target audience)
CodeGear Turbo PHP Builder 2007 Explorer
CodeGear Turbo Python Builder 2007 Explorer
CodeGear Turbo Studio 2007 Explorer
Next stop: clarity in licensing. If you really want us to buy SA so bad, then drop the alternative officially instead of just making it financially ridiculous:
Price of purchase for whatever release should contain free product updates of that edition for one year, as in:
If I buy or upgrade CodeGear Developer Studio I get all studio line product releases that appear within one year following the purchase for free.
(The price for the studio could be slightly lower than the sum of its parts - but doesn’t necessarily have to be.)
If I only bought or upgraded CodeGear Delphi for Win32 I would only get upgrades to CodeGear Delphi for Win32 that appear within the next year. I would be able to buy any other Studio line personality for a reduced price (though higher than an upgrade from a previous version of that personality).
After the year is over I would be able to buy another year of upgrades - I’m not yet sure whether that price will even have to be lower than the initial one.
Sounds clear and reasonable to me at least…
Maybe it could be called "objective Pascal" (as in "objective C")?
How about Visual Pascal?
another vote for Object Pascal
Re: Oliver Gielsen’s list of products
To my taste, "CodeGear" is unnecessary whenever we have Turbo or Delphi. "Builder" is also very much Borland/Inprise or "C++ Builder that has been abandoned for ages" related. I also do not like explicit focus on the Studio personalities. VS does not focus on VB or C# personalities, it just integrates languages nicely. So:
CodeGear Studio Professional
Turbo Delphi for Win32
Turbo Delphi for .Net
Turbo PHP for Win32
Turbo PHP for Linux
Turbo C++ for Win32
I cannot agree more that Delphi for PHP is bad.
Sorry, I forgot about Andrew FG’s Visual Pascal. It is too close to Visual Studio.
What about making it clear that the language links Win32 and .NET, like Omni Pascal (so that OP is still valid)?
I prefered to keep Delphi name for Pascal language. But after introduction of Delhi for PHP the Delphi becomes an IDE name so:
Delphi Studio
Delphi Pascal for Win32
Delphi Pascal for .NET
Delpki PHP
Delphi C++
Turbo Pascal for Win32
Turbo Pascal forn Win32
Turbo C++
ETC.
While I agree that all this name twisting was a big mistake, you’ve made it already with Delphi for PHP, so I’m in agreement with Tomasz.
If "Object" or "Objective" or "Component" is a reasonable adjective for "Pascal", then so is DELPHI- if Delphi means "Visual Component based class library surrounded by a RAD IDE.
So make "Delphi" the name of the IDE and framework, and call the Pascal version "Delphi Pascal". For the rest,
Delphi Studio
Delphi Pascal
Delphi Pascal.net {like VB.net}
Delphi C#.net {but .net might be redundant}
Delpki PHP
Delphi C++
Delphi Python {please}
Delphi Ruby
Delphi JavaScript
etc.
For the low end versions, where you’ll probably provide a more limited VCL and reduced IDE power (you can kill cross-machine debugging, for example), replace "Delphi" with "Turbo".
Drop the "builder" stuff from the names too.
After reading through several comments, and also reading Marco Cantú’s blog post, Object Pascal still sits best with me when I think of the language I program in. But I must admit that I am biased, since Pascal in the form of Turbo Pascal 3.0 for CP/M was the first real programming language I learned and used. Before that it was Basic on the C64 (yes, peeks and pokes, goto’s, and syntax errors in the middle of your program execution). When Delphi came around, it was the innovative IDE concept we’ve come to love. Still when I think of Delphi, I think of the RAD environment rather than the language. However, since Delphi came with Object Pascal, it is still closely connected. However when CodeGear announced Delphi for PHP, I didn’t have any idfficulty imagining a RAD environment where you simply write your code in PHP.
In summary: No problems with either the Delphi branding or the name Object Pascal.
I like the Ideas given by Oliver Giesen
and Andrei Gerasimenko
But even if you guys from Code Gear still wants to transform the Delphi name into a product line, the best choice for the original Delphi name could be Delphi for OPL (Object Pascal Language), thats sounds nice.
Regards,
Diego M. Garcia
So make "Delphi" the name of the IDE and framework. So:
Delphi Studio
Delphi P++ {Pascal }
Delphi P# {Pascal .Net}
Delphi C#
Delphi PHP
Delphi C++
So make "Delphi" the name of the IDE and framework. So:
Delphi Studio
Delphi P++ {Pascal }
Delphi P# {Pascal .Net}
Delphi C#
Delphi PHP
Delphi C++
You should rename Delphi for PHP as PHPBuilder.
Quite many people have got the idea that Pascal is a toy language which is taught to kids on the very beginning and that with Pascal you can’t create anything professional. From this point of view it might be a good idea to get rid of word Pascal and invent something new.
Of those suggested I like the following:
Object Pascal
P#
If people don’t like Pascal how about:
Blaise or Blaize
i.e. his first name or a derivative
or expanding on the C++ idea:
inc(Pascal) = "Pinc"
not sure about the last one. I think my favorite would be "Blaize"
Steve
I think there needs to be a simplifying of the CodeGear product line. There is currently too much confusion about what version does what.
There is currently too much negativity around the Delphi name due to the years of abuse by Borland. Turbo, however, still has fond memories and a positive vibe about it within the developer community, as many developers cut their teeth on either Turbo Pascal or Turbo C++ amongst others. Turbo still has the connotation of speed to boot.
My vote would go for…
Turbo Delphi for Win32
Turbo Delphi for MacOs X
Turbo Delphi for Linux ( x86 )
Turbo Delphi for .Net
Turbo PHP for Win32
Turbo PHP for Linux
Turbo C++ for Win32
Turbo Java
Turbo Ruby
etc
If you want to go for something more high powered, you might want to go for..
Nitro Delphi for Win32
Nitro PHP
I also agree that "Delphi for PHP" HAS to go!
I’m in the camp that says that it’s Delphi for PHP that needs to be renamed, NOT Delphi itself. To be a Delphi programmer is to code in the Delphi language using a version of Delphi or Developer Studio. I’m reminded of the Chronicles of Narnia book, Voyage of the Dawn Treader, where the cat gets into the kitchen and starts breaking bottles of milk and drinking them. The idiotic dufflepuds scramble in and start pulling out all the bottles of milk. It occurs to no one to just remove the cat.
I also do not like the name Delphi for PHP but I am VERY excited about the language. I personally feel that Delphi is the language, I develop in Delphi (for 10 years now), and have many books on programming in Delphi. The name CodeGear is a wonderful name and has a lot of excitement behind it, especially with the PHP addition. My vote would go for:
CodeGear Delphi Studio (both Win32 and .Net)
CodeGear Delphi for Win32 (serepate, NO .Net framework needed)
CodeGear Delphi for .Net
CodeGear Delphi for Linux
CodeGear PHP Builder for Windows
CodeGear PHP Builder for Linux
etc..
I am also strong on the Builder being added to the PHP release since the biggest advantage of the PHP release is the ability to rapidly "Build" the code. Just my 2 cents
@Randy : brilliant comparison!
(and boy were those dufflepuds annoying)
@everyone who starts his/her replies along the lines of "As the Delphi for PHP thing has already been settled…" : I don’t think so. They’re still in the field testing stage! I don’t think a single box has been printed yet. Or has it?
Oh yes, and here’s another question to the CodeGear people: Why are you asking this question now? Why didn’t you think about the inevitable consequences of this product naming decision beforehands?
"Delphi for PHP" (the name, not the product) MUST go!
I was at the London talk yesterday, and whilst I see what you are trying to say, I must admit that I wasn’t really convinced by the argument that Delphi isn’t the language.
And I don’t really think that you guys are either as you constantly talked about "Delphi" when talking about "Delphi for Object Pascal 2007" yesterday.
I’d happily see Delphi for PHP renamed (but not if it is hgoing to delay my pre-order delivery <g>!
But thanks…it was a worthwhile day!
All this concerning the naming the product line resume to one question:
‘Delphi is the name of a language or then name of an IDE ?’
In the first case the naming of the product:
Highlander for Delphi Win32
Highlander for PHP
etc…
In the second case the naming of the product:
Delphi for Object Pascal Win32
Delphi for PHP
etc…
As we saw in the forums, XXX PHP cannot be used without the express permission of the PHP group and I don’t think they will ever give that permission.
JFPicard
I’m glad you’re asking. Branding is important and shouldn’t be dismissed as "mumbo jumbo".
I agree with others. "Object Pascal" strikes me as the best choice.
Come to terms with the idea that the world at large will hear the word "Pascal". Don’t hide it, embrace it. Don’t dwell on preconceived notions of other peoples’ preconceived notions of the language, help shape that perception. Have "This is not your father’s Pascal" logos made up. Anyone who uses it finds out eventually, anyway.
Possibly "CodeGear Object Pascal" for the full legal name or "CodeGear Pascal" if there are legal issue with the term "Object Pascal" (Just don’t give it up without a fight).
I don’t mind going back to calling the IDE "Delphi". Unfortunately, it’s exactly the opposite of Borland’s last branding experiment, so you’ll have a lot of history to make up for and confusion to clear up. Over and over again.
And then there’s the unfortunately named "Delphi for PHP". There is still confusion over Delphi and Pascal, and this may add to it. Are you sure there’s no legal way to get PHP Builder?
How about turning the name around a little? You have language personalities are available for the IDE and not necessarily the other way around.
Object Pascal for Delphi
Turbo Object Pascal for Delphi
C++ for Delphi
C# for Delphi
PHP for Delphi
VB for Delphi (Hey, Cleggy!)
Ruby for Delphi…
I’m not sure about the distinction between the native and .Net versions of Pascal. Maybe:
Object Pascal for Delphi (Win32)
Object Pascal for Delphi (.Net)
Object Pascal for Delphi (Linux) (a guy’s got to dream…)
They’ll probably be shorthanded to "Delphi" and "Delphi for .Net" for a long time.
And maybe just add the term "studio" to differentiate between single and multiple personality SKUs.
Failing that, I like Jose’s suggestion of "Delphi Object Pascal" or just "Delphi Pascal".
Whatever you do, be completely forthcoming, consistent and patient. It’ll take a while. Acknowledge that this is a change in direction (don’t pretend that it’s always been this way) and don’t shy away from criticism that the previous branding efforts were… suboptimal, and constantly emphasize that you’re trying to do it better. Give people reasons to say good things about this. Use the stir to draw attention to the brand itself and not the (inevitable) complaining.
Just a thought.
We should call it P#
D#. No wait, the D language is already taken.
D-Rad or Drad?
Pas-D? Nah.
How about just plain old Pascal v#? Replace # with whatever iteration it’s in, instead of 2007 or some other year.
Drad?
Farscape fan, by any chance?
Call it Omphalos: Which means center of the entire universe. Admittedly it’s a big name to fill completely but then again Delphi didn’t set the bar all that low and well what would come after Delphi? I mean really Delphi was the center of very important things/sites to Greece it *was* the center of their universe.
So I say call it Omphalos. Although Pythia or Sibyl are cool as well those are names for the prophet or Oracle. Sibyl would be very cool but something leads me to believe it’s been used elsewhere. Here’s the link I used to read up on Delphi. http://atheism.about.com/od/religiousplaces/p/DelphiSanctuary.htm
I vote for CodeGear Pascal — you definitely won’t conflict with any other version of Pascal that way!
Keep Delphi as Delphi and the language Object Pascal. For the rest I can care less, give them their own names. c#,PHP, java.
When talking about Delphi for me means the EDI and Object Pascal. Keep Delphi out of all the myriad of languages, it seems like a new language is popping up every day, keep Delphi pure. Just try to make it better, modernize it, the code editor needs serious improvements, these are new times, make it smatter (auto-indent, properties/methods auto-list constants, mini-help while typing a function,etc,etc.), I don’t like browsing the help looking for constants, or other minor details that could have been shown while typing the code; for those hard core fans that think that the editor is just fine,good, if you don’t like innovation you can always use notepad.
Delphi was a good name.
It was the language and components and ide.
Now the IDE has run off with the name
Pascal would be ok.
The rest is just too long.
Whats wrong with keeping the delphi name ?
Delphi (alone) is the IDE for Pascal
Delphi for C# is the IDE for C#
Delphi for PHP is the IDE for PHP
and so on…
Turbo Delphi (pascal)
Turbo Delphi for PHP
Turbo Delphi for C#
and so on…
The complete packages: Delphi Studio
Most important is what should changed/improved/added really in Delphi architecture. Naming importance is at last position IMHO.
My vote is Object Pascal.
OOOP Omnibus Object Oriented Pascal
shorted O3P or tripple OP
But apart from that Im also in agreement with the belief that the naming ‘Delphi for PHP’ is not right.
First it will cause all sorts of problems for PHP developers trying to search the web for information about their specific IDE, as they often will get lots of hits from something completely unrelated… and similarly Delphi Pascal developers will have problems.
As they currently say in Danish Tuborg commercials: ‘Det er en ommer!’… That needs to be redone
best regards
Kim Madsen
kbm@components4developers.com
My proposal for the future:
Turbo Development Studio (Lite, Explorer, Pro, Enterprise), allowing plug-ins of the following:
Turbo Delphi
Turbo Delphi for .NET
Turbo C#
Turbo C++
Turbo PHP
Turbo Ruby
Turbo Java
Turbo Kylix (hehe)
Bring the Turbo brand into all of the products. Drop the builders. Codegear as a new company should have the latest new branding.
Explanation of the versions:
Compiler - cmd line compilers w/ no ide
Lite - same as current Explorer
Explorer - same as current Turbo
Pro - same as current Pro
Enterprise - same as current Architect
I can’t bear seeing Turbo Object Pascal… that’s gonna sound so lame
So, let Delphi be Delphi and stick with Turbo Delphi!
I’ve programmed in Turbo Pascal From turbo 2.0 until Delphi 1 in 94, since then I’ve always call myself a Delphi Programmer. Now It’s getting so complicated, I think I’ll switch to Visual Basic for Cobol Dotnet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_Pascal
I agree with Kim Madsen and countless others, Delphi for PHP is bad name, det er en ommer!
Call it Astro, Apollo, Acropolis for PHP or some other classic Greek name. People will get the association to Delphi, but understand that they do not get exactly the same.
This name could later be used for other script based language like Ruby that are rumored to work on.
You can still use "it’s like Delphi for PHP" as a marketing slogan to introduce the PHP tool, but do not use Delphi in the name to confuse what Delphi has been standing for for 10+ years.
Who came up with these foolish naming idea? It has all the hallmarks of a MBA educated person full of short sighted marketing gains and stock-price pumping.
Have you ever considered what impact these kind of name changing has for all the printed books, websites, documents and third party companies that work with you?
If you absolutely must (again) change the name of the Delphi language then make it: Object Pascal.
Doei RIF
How about:
Delphi Pascal
Delphi C++
Delphi C#
Delphi PHP
etc.
Delphi is the programming expirience, and Delphi Pascal is the flavor of Pascal included in Delphi…
Forget about nostalgic names like Borland, Turbo and Pascal. Or would you think it’s a good idea to call your PC a Commodore64? (maybe Commodore64++ would be a nice name
Keep it simple and focus on powerful brand names like Delphi and VCL, which work well in search engines (ever tried searching components for C++ Builder? What a mess of a name in this matter…). Delphi is a synonym for RAD (speed and cost reduction), C++ is a synomym for professional development (quality and performance). So "Delphi" and "C++" are in fact opposites, united by the VCL to an extremely powerful product combining multiple languages, a real chameleon. It’s not the development environment which needs a "big name", its the underlying code base, the VCL, rivaling the superfluous .NET framework (oh, that could be a dangerous adjective…)
Anyway, whatever new name you specify (if any is needed), names are names. A new name (like CodeGear) will only be successful if developers follow your path. The most important thing to accomplish this is keeping backwards compatibility for VCL components among versions! I have gone from C++Builder 1 to 3 to 5 to 2006 and I could have killed you guys more than once for every third party component which I had to migrate from one version to the next, having to repeatedly pay license fees, having the migration work and even worse - sometimes having to drop a component and exchange it by a new one when the third party company did not exist any more.
I’ve been listening to this hype-stuff for over 20 years now (I started with Turbo 3.02a) and here is my take on it.
Borland "officially" named their version of Object Pascal "Delphi". Fine. When dot Net came along we were given "Delphi for .NET". Also fine. Now CodeGear is supporting other languages. This is their version of PHP. Again, Fine! Why not call it something like "RAD PHP" or CodeGears’ PHP RAD or PHP VCL or something descriptive like that. I mean, sheesh, CodeGear has taken an already existant language, added good stuff to it and installed it as a personality in the CGDS (CodeGear Development Studio). Tell the marketing people that they are dealing with people with actual, functioning brains (a hard thing for marketing types to understand but…) that don’t need to be "sold" on some fancy spin. Just tell us what the product is, what it does and WE’LL decide if we want to buy it or not based on how good a job the CG developers did. If they did good, we’ll buy, if they blew it, we go elsewhere. In few other places is marketing so wasted as on compilers. Please, please don’t make the mistake that so many others have made and turn this into a marketing nightmare - it’s already bad enough.
DON’T try to hijack the Delphi name - leave it alone!
Come up with a NEW name for your NEW PHP!
My vote goes to any of the Turbo C++, Turbo PHP, etc… suggestions. Brings back warm memories of the early borland tools for those of us old enough to remember, and sounds cool.
Turbo Studio
Turbo C++
Turbo Delphi
Turbo PHP
Turbo Delphi for Mac
and then fix up the whole existing turbo line mess by calling it Turbo C++ lite or Turbo C++ express, or something.
At any rate, do something. The only way you could make it more confusing would be to start switching between year, version, and name for each release like microsoft likes to do (office 11, office xp, office 2003).
And, since I feel the need to say it in every post until I see a roadmap that reflects it: The important thing for your company now is to give us things that microsoft won’t: Good native development!. Improve the native VCL for win32 (cough *UNICODE* cough). When you’ve got that done, branch out to non microsoft tools/languages/platforms. I’d much rather see turbo delphi for mac than turbo delphi for .net 3 any day. When I develop .net apps, why would I want choose anything other than visual studio? It’s a slick IDE with a nice language, the only downside is being tied to .Net and the MS platform. Focus on that weakness and you’ll have a meaningful product. Continue chasing Microsoft, and you’ve already lost.
Oh, and for the record: While I would prefer to see more focus on native VCL/C++/Delphi for the immediate future, great job with Turbo PHP. This is exactly the type of product that people want, and that Microsoft won’t deliver. I’m looking forward to having a nice PHP IDE for once.
Please rename "Delphi for PHP"! Delphi is a programming language. I was very confused, when I heard about "Delphi for PHP". Can I write Delphi code which compiles to PHP code? No. Why do you confuse your customers? Delphi is a synonym to Object Pascal for about twelve years. Why do you want to change this? Take a new name for a new product!
I can give you my midlle names if you need
Object Pascal: obviously! All this confusion (see earlier messages!) has been caused by Borland’s dumb decision to refer to the language as "Delphi". Back in the days of Delphi 6, the language was Object Pascal and there was no confusion. Now we have Delphi for PHP and that dumb decision has come home to roost. Congrats for shooting yourselves in the foot…..again.
Dave
I mest admit, having leaned Pascal at uni many years ago, I had never thought of Delphi as the name of the language - the language was Pascal, or Object Pascal, Delphi was all the other stuff - the VCL, RAD programing, form designer, units etc etc. So to me , Delphi for PHP makes perfect sense.
How about TLFKAP - The Language Formerly Known as Pascal (for all those that remember the ‘Prince’ debacle)
[Turbo] Delphi for Windows
[Turbo] Delphi for Mac OS X
[Turbo] Delphi for UNIX (Linux, SCO…)
The rest call them whatever you want except Delphi
Respectfully,… the language IS Delphi. Always has been and should always be.
The "container" became BDS, NOT Delphi. Remember? Delphi WAS one of the languages contained in BDS.
Trying to rationalize changing the name now is a crock of stuff.
Q
> Dave Jewell - Object Pascal: obviously!
Great to hear from you Dave! I hope we can crash into each other again some day.
>The "container" became BDS, NOT Delphi. Remember? Delphi WAS one of the languages contained in BDS.
The underlying IDE framework is called Galileo. Delphi 2007 for Win32 is the 5.0 version. Hence your default install will be placed in a folder named "5.0".
BDS is the name of the product bundle that includes 4 languages and support for additional "languages" like JavaScript, HTML, etc.
You should have asked this question long before diluting the meaning of Delphi by associating it with the language of PHP.
I think that product is a great idea, but the name is wrong wrong wrong. You should have asked the community first.
Making Delphi a *euphemism* for Pascal was a disappointment right from the start, but now that association is deeply entrenched. In thousands of developers minds and on thousands of websites, Delphi IS Pascal.
You’ve just further damaged the already troubled and misunderstood history of Pascal with the misnaming of your PHP product.
I still and always wish you the best of luck and success with CodeGear, but I just wish you had done the PHP thing differently.
My vote would go for "Delphi Pascal". The second option would be "Object Pascal", since we got used to it.
David,
This is almost so simple as to be complex. There is only one good answer, as I see it, and that is to call the language, once again, Object Pascal. What we don’t need is a new name to add to the growing confusion of CodeGear products. Changing the language to Delphi was confusing and seldom used outside of Borland. I don’t know anyone who used that term when speaking of the language itself. Delphi, on the other hand, has always meant RAD development and I think that term can rightfully be used in any CodeGear RAD product. When I buy a Delphi branded tool, be it Delphi Win32, Delphi.Net, Delphi for PHP or Delphi for Ruby… I want to know that I can expect a RAD experience on par with other Delphi products, regardless of the underlying language. So "let’s stick it to the man" and call it Object Pascal once again and let the term "Delphi" transcend any one product and become a mark of RAD excellence.
Rebranding "Delphi" to mean the RAD IDE is a terrible idea. It will introduce a lot of confusion into the marketplace where "Delphi" is commonly understood to mean Borland’s (now CodeGear’s) dialect of Object Pascal.
Instead CodeGear should brand the studio after your new company name. For example something like "CodeGear Studio", this would result in:
CodeGear Studio for Delphi
CodeGear Studio for C#
CodeGear Studio for PHP
etc.
…or even just "CodeGear". CodeGear for Delphi has a certain ring to it.
With the majority of new MS Windows projects migrating away from Delphi to Visual Studio, for reasons which CodeGear is only now starting to address (timely platform api updates, better selection of system profiling and debugging tools, commoditization of the RAD IDE concept). The last thing CodeGear needs to do is introduce market confusion about their brand.
When I saw "Delphi for PHP" I thought, well perhaps that’s just a blog typo, their marketing guys couldn’t possibly be that short sighted. So thanks for asking about this - someone needs to suggest a serious course correction.
p.s. As a long time Delphi developer I love what is coming down the pipe from CodeGear, and look forward to the day I can justify switching back to your tools. Keep up the great work!
Wirth Pascal
Hejlsberg Pascal
I have *NEVER* met anyone technical who has even stopped to ask if I was talking about object pascal when I mention I write in Delphi. Delphi has become the language, if you don’t see this, please remove the marketing manager, if it’s not his decision, please remove all above him.
Your PHP product can EASILY become an incredible hype on its own, it doesnt need the Delphi name to help it. For once, just make sure you market this product to the broad audience it deserves.
Stuff like this makes me wonder if I should just call you guys Borland again.
David I, I wish you all the best, thanks for your ever lasting drive to give us the best Dev Tools. i’ll ignore the obvious break you took the last few years
I think is good idea read "22 inmutable laws of marketing" and the explanation of Erik for geeks
You can’t force (easily) change the mindset of the customer perception.
CodeGear is the brand of the COMPANY. Is a mistake call it the products because not exist 1 COMPANY=1 PRODUCT (like RemObject in the start)
Delphi alwasy be the language, Keep it OR provide a great advance in pascal (like great multi-threading as in Erlang, Win64, Unicode and multiplataform) and call it anything you want.
But if Delphi only have "improvenments" keep the name.
Delphi for PHP is confusing. PHP is not delphi. Is a mess, is more like VB. Is cheap, everyone use it and requiere a mindset diferent of traditional desktop programing. Is good that CodeGear try to improve it, like before some improve C++. But is not Delphi at all.
My vote goes for "Object Pascal"
Zenon
Tlaloc
Tlaloc - He who makes things grow
Known to the Olmec as "Epcoatl", meaning Seashell Serpent; to the Maya as Chac; to the Totonacs as Tajin; to the Mixtecs as Tzahui; to the Zapotecs as Cocijo. A water god and probably among the oldest gods. Benevolent, he would release floods and lightning when angered.
My vote goes for rename "Delphi for PHP" to PHP Builder like c++Builder, JBuilder, C#Builder.
Steve Summers has it right! Go Steve. Short, sweet and to the point.
Delphi Studio {multiple languages}
Delphi Pascal
Delphi Pascal.Net
Delphi C#.Net
Delphi PHP
Delphi C++
Delphi Python
Delphi Ruby
Delphi JavaScript
etc.
You also have to add a feature set descriptor to the above. This means Turbo is essentially a feature set level.
- Explorer {free, for learning}
- Turbo {entry level}
- Professional {now your a pro}
- Enterprise {true enterprise features}
- Architect {grand master}
Under the circumstances naming the language back to Object Pascal would be the easiest thing to do. The "old guard" will like it. And the "young turks" don’t care (and shouldn’t get a vote anyway… <g>)
However, I think its worth considering a new name entirely just to lure the PHBs into looking that the language "with new eyes" for the first time in a long time.
So your safe default should revert back to "Object Pascal". A bolder move with the potential for greater commercial benefits would be to come up with a new name that rocks!
But looking at the long list above me, this aint’ the right crowd to ask. Seriously. There is no out-of-the-box thinking happening in this thread at all. And that’s what is required.
Regards,
Dennis Landi
Are you crazy ?
Change the name of the IDE and not the name of the programming language!!!!!!!
Otherwise you fall of all the homepages that do compare languages!
Examples:
http://dada.perl.it/shootout/
http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm
Also all job search engines do list delphi!!!
http://www.gulp.de/cgi-gulp/searchbot.exe?token=Delphi&searchtool=C6VI5SF7&x=0&y=0
So stop this bad idea!!
1. Can confirm that in Russia like in Canada job offers and resumes list Delphi as a language, not Object Pascal.
2. There are two ways:
First - open the language and standardize it, like SQL, Java or C#. Either as an informal industrial or ECMA/ISO. This way it should be called something like "Object Pascal 2007" (like SQL 92 or Java Platform 2 etc.) The "2007" should indicate feature set. A IDE then should keep "Delphi" name as a brand for feature set of IDE and library not language. This way implies some sort of efforts similar to JSRs. There are parties that should be taken into account like DevExpress, TMS, etc, to be involved in the proecess.
Second way - keep the current situation when CG=Borland=Delphi=ObjectPascal where "=" should be treated like "somehow equal".
By the way, current Delphi IDE already has two languages: ObjectPascal and OCL. And both are important. And ECO Action Language as well!
I vote for "Object Pascal 2007".
Or 2006 if you will add generics this year.
Did you think this was going to be such a hot topic? I look forward to the follow up posting about this David.
Object Pascal
Hope you can sleep out your jetlag,
Hans-Peter
Just Pascal
It doesn’t matter what improvements and innovations are done it still Pascal in core.
"Pascal" was the LastName of a French mathematician, physicist, and religious philosopher. At age eighteen, Blaise Pascal constructed a mechanical calculator capable of addition and subtraction, called Pascal’s calculator or the Pascaline : this is the first real automated computation device.
Let’s call the language by his FistName then :
BLAISE
Object Pascal
Call It "Native Delphi"
I’m with Borland/CodeGear since Turbo Pascal 5.0. For me Delphi is the name of the IDE (for Object Pascal).
I’m not too experienced in the other products like C++ Builder, JBuilder a.s.o., but if the underlying IDE is basically the same now - wasn’t when they first came out, I think) they are all Delphi for <whatever>. Even though David said the internal name for the IDE framework is Galileo.
So it seems to me the obvious solution is
Delphi for Object Pascal or
Delphi for Codegear Pascal or
Delphi for Borland Pascal
Other products would fit in:
Delphi for C++
Delphi for C#
Delphi for PHP
Delphi for Phython (hoping for it)
But the marketing guys should do some brainstorming, since they want to invent
Delphi for Win32 <> Delphi for Win64 <> Delphi for .Net <> Delphi for Windows Mobile
Why is it back to Win32?
Why is it not Delphi for Windows (which includes compiler for 32,64,Mobile,whatever)?
And what about e.g. Delphi for C++ on Win64 ???
And Delphi for Java on Windows Mobile ???
So the language in all Delphi for WinXX/.Net would be (and is already for me) "Object Pascal".
pythia
Well, Borland Pascal 7.0 (7 <-> 2007).
Object Pascal it is.
Delphi is the product
and
Object Pascal is the name of the language we are using.
I think it should be called Object Pascal 100%
ObjectPascal or DelphiPascal